Feb 11, 2011

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BABA DEZ & OTHERS ON SEX BETWEEN SEEKERS & TANTRA EDUCATORS

BABA DEZ & OTHERS ON SEX BETWEEN SEEKERS & TANTRA EDUCATORS
(Cross post from facebook)

Sacred Union – ethics, blocks and boundaries by Baba Dez Nichols

Recently there has been some polarization in the global community around the
issue of engaging in sexuality with those who are in a student or client role
with a sex educator.

I receive a good deal of feedback in this area as I am one of those who chooses
such a path. I make no apology for doing so and see it as an essential part of
what it is I am teaching and have to offer. We all celebrate the Tantric path as
one of Love, Power, and Freedom.

Part of the embodiment of this path, is seeing and then healing where I as a
teacher can go along with the limiting cultural beliefs, judgments, and
telepathic agreements around sex, love, and healing. Leaving these elements
unhealed can perpetuate more separation, fear, and disempowerment in the world.

I hear and understand the reasons many people have difficulty with teachers and
healers engaging physically with students and clients. There is probably no
other area of human interaction that carries more shadow as well as potential
for major healing and energetic shift. Everyone has some wounds in this area and
some much more than others if they have suffered direct abuse. People are often
in a very vulnerable place when they seek to work with sexual issues and
students also have the power dynamic when they are engaging with someone who is
in a teaching role. I do get this.

And I choose to do what I do out beyond the rules and ethics that belong in the
realm of therapy and classrooms. Love, consciousness, mediation, insight,
breath, energy and body work all have their place in healing. So does sexuality
including the physical act of Sacred Union. Evaluating the seeker/student and
using guidelines and protocols, I let love choose who and how I connect with
someone while at the same time being as conscious of how our interaction may
affect and trigger response. It is tricky territory to traverse and requires
years of training.

I do respect and understand why educators set boundaries and have rules about
their interactions with students. However, to judge or ban all teachers that
might teach and share Sacred Union with students creates a block where a healthy
boundary is needed. Let’s deal with teachers on an individual basis of
professionalism, track record, and integrity. Professionally, if you fail in
discernment around what and who it is appropriate to share with, or, if you are
using this work to fill your personal sexual appetite, you will pay a high price
for your lack of integrity and impeccability.

I ask to be treated with the same respect for my work which I undertake
consciously, motivated by love and with the intention of providing a space for
radical healing and empowerment. I have worked with thousands of clients over
many years and had the privilege of being the difference that mattered at
crucial times in their lives, often precisely because I was prepared to move the
way love called me to move.
I also attract a good deal of controversy as a result and need to discern
between projection and any elements of my own shadow. It is a razor’s edge out
beyond the safe boundaries of mainstream ethics. This is why I walk it
impeccably and continue my own growth by engaging in review with trusted peers
and allies.

Yes, it is appropriate that schools and/or groups take action and confront
teachers, guides, and practitioners that leave a trail of traumatized,
manipulated, and abused students and clients behind them.
To address ingrained puritanical Victorian values, let us start to heal our own
shadows and projected issues of fear, guilt, and shame around sexual intimacy
and Sacred Union. Then, Sacred Union can be one of the beautiful ways to
addresses wounding, deep healing, activation, initiation, and celebration.

For thousands of years Temple teachers, priests and priestesses have been
sharing Sacred Union with seekers, and students. It is one of the beautiful ways
to addresses wounding, deep healing, activation, initiation, and celebration.

Where do we send these people that are wanting to learn and celebrate the
sacrament of sacred union with a teacher of this art? Until I can tell them
where else they can go…..I can not ignore them or dismiss them.

Each of us who work in this field know we are one in essence and driven forward
in our work by the same dynamic and evolutionary force of love. I join with you
there even while celebrating the necessity of sometimes walking alone into the
fire of my unique contribution.
We are One Heart, `Living In Love, Power, and Freedom,
Baba Dez

Yes, it is appropriate that schools and/or groups take action and confront
teachers, guides, and practitioners that leave a trail of traumatized,
manipulated, and abused students and clients behind them.
To address ingrained puritanical Victorian values, let us start to heal our own
shadows and projected issues of fear, guilt, and shame around sexual intimacy
and Sacred Union. Then, Sacred Union can be one of the beautiful ways to
addresses wounding, deep healing, activation, initiation, and celebration.

For thousands of years Temple teachers, priests and priestesses have been
sharing Sacred Union with seekers, and students. It is one of the beautiful ways
to addresses wounding, deep healing, activation, initiation, and celebration.

Where do we send these people that are wanting to learn and celebrate the
sacrament of sacred union with a teacher of this art? Until I can tell them
where else they can go…..I can not ignore them or dismiss them.

Each of us who work in this field know we are one in essence and driven forward
in our work by the same dynamic and evolutionary force of love. I join with you
there even while celebrating the necessity of sometimes walking alone into the
fire of my unique contribution.
We are One Heart, Living In Love, Power, and Freedom,
Baba Dez Nichols This note is temporarily deleted to honor the request of some
of my associates for more dialogue before publishing. it is intended to support
a deeper look into the the Temple Arts, it’s healing rituals, and the
inculturated fear around this powerful body of knowledge. These are MY thoughts
and feelings and do not relect those of any other individual or organization.

COMMENTS ON BABA DEZ’S ARTICLE

Sasha Alex Lessin Ph.D.: Most sex educators, sometime or other in their
practice, do connect with clients, according to Shepard (Memoirs of a Defrocked
Psychoanalyst). What’s important, I think, is that they analyze their bonding
(transference) pattern consciously and avoid harming anyone.

William King Gutshall Maybe the Sacred Sex Teachers all need to buy an island
and build a temple…perhaps Sir Richard Branson would facilitate this.

Baba Dez Nichols How about a temple in every city worldwide?
Kamala Devi This is a touchy topic, but the bottom line is that dakas and
dakinis heal and teach with our bodies. There are many transmissions that can’t
be gotten through talk therapy.

William King Gutshall Sounds great, and yet I think a temple that takes a Sacred
Journey to get to, that is outside normal mores, and requires commitment would
be a great centralized meeting place to then spread from city to city.

Kamala Devi P.S. Charles Muir says he never sleeps with his students… He
a1wakens them. Here’s another interesting article on the
subject.http://integrallife.com/member/jun-po-kelly-roshi/blog/defense-promiscui\
ty

Howard Woodwind Morningstar beautiful written baba dez…. thank you for
expressing this important truth so clearly.
Michael Day Teaching through Sex..or not.. is a metaphysical issue.. only the
gods can judge!

Daka Dom
I salute your courage to lead from the EDGE Dez…it will be valuable to shed
more light on the shadows in all regards on this issue…I was always intrigued
by the innuendo and suspicion around Carl Jung and his “mystical
marriages”…and …in my own experience some of my clients were clearly not
prepared to engage in the desires they brought to me to explore…the work
wasn’t about the Erotic desire…it was about the moral conflicts, traumas and
protectors one held internally that had held the desire back for decades, locked
in the body heart and soul.

Robert Hartman I’m not qualified to say what is appropriate for another’s
healing journey. I’m not qualified to say what another practitioner should or
should not do by way of treatment.

I can say that when consenting adults engage in any activity that ent…ails
risks of physical or emotional harm, informed consent beforehand is a moral
imperative. For anyone in a healing or teaching role, that imperative translates
into a set of ethical considerations that cannot be treated lightly.

When someone is in pain, their capacity to consent is diminished. When someone
is in an authoritative role–any authoritative role–they are in a position to
exert undue influence. Because of the universal nature of
transference/countertransference, a person in an authoritative role has an added
burden to monitor her or his own reactions in order to prevent undue harm to the
person in the client/student role. Otherwise, the interaction runs the risk of
re-enacting the dynamic that caused the original injury. A practitioner’s own
desires and aversions are even more important to monitor and evaluate honestly
than the material that surfaces in the client/student.

People with issues around intimacy are often at the effect of earlier traumas
that can include various types of abuse including sexual and emotional incest.
The traumatic effects of those earlier experiences can produce symptoms of PTSD
in varying degrees, and PTSD is also a cause of diminished capacity.

Any practitioner who engages in sexual activity or romantic intrigue with a
client or student, or anyone who accepts as a student or client someone with an
obvious sexual or romantic interest in them, needs to be extra careful about
ensuring that they have obtained informed consent from that individual before
they do any activity that includes physical contact or confidential talk.

How a practitioner goes about reassuring her- or himself on that score is a big
subject. The psychotherapists have basically adopted a least-common-denominator
rule. And though that rule can seem overbroad, I don’t think anyone wants to
wake up realizing that a beloved client has been hurt through one’s own lack of
competence or awareness. But, it can happen.

If a practitioner can stay conscious around her or his own countertransference
issues, clients might well benefit from a sexual/romantic healing–especially if
that’s what they came for and they chose a practitioner specifically for that
reason. Even so, it requires some deep awareness, a keen sensitivity to the
risk,and possibly outside support for the practitioner to keep it safe for such
a client.

Ceco Martin: In the question of intimacy between teacher & student – To share,
to sit side by side, not face to face – that is where the student-teacher
compliment changes to travellers together. After such a transition (please note
& know that actually… having sex does NOT need to occur – there can simply be
the shift from teacher to friend), then there is no one teacher nor one student,
it is a learning from each other. A sharing… How long will you share depends
entirely on you, your ego, & if you truly are awake to the sheer possibilities
of the divine timeless energy. If we are actually open people (NOT just
students) will naturally want to share in your time, space & energy… Who you
are without an image of knowledgeability but you as the person without pomp &
ceremony is who is then on show. THAT is more the challenge in sharing as a
friend or more than just a friend. Ego will not serve you here either. Being
humble & open to the lessons we ourselves need to take in from sharing with
fellow humans is truly the only thing in question. How one does this is on your
own conscience & karma. Ones own self is the biggest judge of all. We create our
own heaven or hell. Share – though do it in peace, truth & without want of
selfish gain. Let go of ego in such sharing and there will be a peaceful
communication. A sharing rather than role play of titles… Carol M.E. Martin

http://j.mp/g4FTvw

Prairie Carrie Cletas Emrich: Testify brother. You are loved in your bright and
darkness. Love from the mountains to your heart.

Jade Beaty: Thanks, Dez. Some deep thinking on a ‘touchy’ subject. I’m grateful
for my years as a prostitute because it’s clear to me the difference between sex
for money and sexual healing. Not all practitioners have clarity on this, and
until healers explain ourselves in ways that everyone can get, there will
continue to be confusion. And it’s all good. Much love to you!

Catherine Angela Williams: Given my delightful exploration of gender roles and
meanings recently (thru educating myself with feminist writings and sociological
and psychological texts on gender, thu meditation and tantric masculine/feminine
integration techniques and… realtionships), I am uncertain of the usefulness
of the principle often taught that when women move towards sacred union with
client this desire is to be trusted but that when men feel moved towards sacred
union with client there needs to be caution because of inherent male shadow.

If we are teaching that one ‘gender’, one body, one expression of being human is
inherently sexually flawed can that be “right”?

How can “male” learn to trust their own desire and knowing in their work and
play? How can “female”?
Rahasya Advait: I’m curious … what feedback?

I find this remark interesting:
“Yes, it is appropriate that schools and/or groups take action and confront
teachers, guides, and practitioners that leave a trail of traumatized,
manipulated, and abused students a…nd clients behind them.”

I have never seen or heard of this happening around conscious work !?

There is a phenomenon where teachers traumatise, manipulate, abuse their
students … this is called a mind-control cult. A mini-version of the large
religions which do it wholesale.

It is only in a closed community – closed in terms of it’s reading list,
personal connections, contact with other teachers and approaches – that this is
possible.

In the larger world, things work more organically. People tell each other where
the good stuff is, where the dragons lurk and so on. More or less
self-adjusting.

… so, I am still curious about what prompted this communication. It reads to me
like an eloquent plea in the face of some stern inquisition – What is this
polarisation of which you speak, and where is it being discussed online?
Vito Hemphill: I feel that it is always a matter of ‘agreement between
practitioner and client.’ If the agreement is to have sexual relations to heal
and the client is ‘really aware of what is happening,’ then in this context I
understand why this healin…g may be appropriate.

My concern is that really wounded people often do not have any boundaries and
often get in over their heads….so they may react later after the Daka/Dakini
work.

I also believe that every thing is in divine order….so all is perfect and
sometimes painful. If the healer is clear then everything will go much
smoother….if not, the healer has some lessons to learn too

Jade Beaty: Over the years, I’ve developed the policy that my client and I build
a foundation of trust and safety first, over as many sessions as I deem needed,
so that BOTH of us are comfortable with going deeper. If someone doesn’t want to
stick arou…nd for that, they were obviously seeking sexual services instead of
healing. This also eliminates anyone who is attempting to ‘investigate’ my work.
Being intimate with a stranger upon first meeting is risky at best, and not
particularly healing for client or practitioner. Pricing sessions to match the
escort’s prices is another point of confusion. Nude pictures on a healer’s
website? What’s someone from the viewpoint of ‘adult entertainment’ going to
expect? Until some of us are able to clearly differentiate ourselves from adult
entertainment, the confusion will continue, and the risks for legal issues will
be present.

Rahasya Advait: As tantrikas, we, among our own, face a different scenario,
perhaps, than when teaching a group or workshop, marketed in the culture, to the
culture. We do pick up a bit of responsibility with that interaction…

For teachers who are not drive…n anymore by cravings of their own sexuality,
this is perhaps not really an issue, but they are not in the majority.

For teachers who’s own eroticism is still in play, I do think an argument can be
made for dividing teaching in group/session/workshop space from personal
playtime, even though much good learning may happen there too.

Where the line should be … I think it’s a teacher’s choice, supported or not by
those s/he works with.

Rahasya Advait: One more nitpick (keep checking back to see if there are any
revalations about what exactly has been complained about)

The term “sacred union” … which, to me, is an internal thing, the masculine and
feminine aspects in a being becoming unite…d, transcending that polarity.
Nothing at all to do with what two people do.

I find “fucking” and “lovemaking”, even “lovemaking using tantric or taoist
techniques” perfectly good descriptive words to use, when that is what is
happening.

Maya Yonika: Yes… the more honest the better. Dez I personally feel that if
you were to entitle yourself as prostitute…even Sacred or Tantric Prostitute,
then It is a fair, honest exchange. It is clear what they are getting. But for
those who com…e in searching for something deeper…those who are mystified by
the words Tantric and Sacred Sex and Sacred Union, thinking they might find
access to deep healing and Spiritual Guidance.. they are vulnerable. I do get
that many have been helped through you…and have enjoyed sex with you… for
those who’s initiatives are actually sexually based, your work is ideal. There
are others who need guidance of a different nature and it would behoove you to
become discerning of that. There is still plenty for you….plenty who will be
served well through you. Why not consider taking some time to learn with wiser
teachers and sink into deeper wisdom and discernment?

IMHO – There are aspects of the sexual experience, with in the human framework
of course, that reach heights of Satori that can only be reached with another
partner. It seems to me that there is this belief that the deep spiritual stuff
ca…n only be touched by personal, no human contact, deep meditation or
isolating one’s self in a monastery, or some kind of “Lone Ranger” method. In my
experience, I’ve reached states of spiritual awareness & deep revelations within
the context of the human sexual experience with another or others. I don’t
believe that there is anything more suited to take our mind, soul & spirit, to
depths of understanding source energy, better than sexual contact with
another…..and this topic scares the shit out of people more than anything I’ve
ever witnessed, and I am glad that you are out there doing what you do Baba
Dez…

We need more people like you…like you said, “a temple in every city”…. We
would have a mass awakening to a level of spiritual understanding not seen since
the ancient civilizations flourished…..

Everything in the universe and in nature exemplifies the sexual (creative
energy) principles relentlessly…..it never ever stops. Billions of forms of
this energy pervades us every waking and sleeping moment…..What Dez is
engaging is nothing more than something we all should be doing and treating it
no more special than any other human activity. This kind of behavior would only
highlight our true essence and cause the human race to live cooperatively and
honorably. It would eradicate things like war, disease, hunger and
selfishness….

Baba Dez is a living example of what Serena Anderlini shares in her
book….”Gaia and the new politics of Love” …

And I feel that what gets interpreted as “mistakes” the most in this kind of
work is when people’s reaction to there own stuff coming up so strongly, that
they don’t understand that the source of them is internal and wind up blaming
the person who triggered them….in this case, Baba Dez….and it’s these deep
personal issues that need to be healed that allow us the depths of contact in
spiritual realms we seek..

Maya Yonika: ‎”What Dez is engaging is nothing more than something we all
should be doing and treating it no more special than any other human activity”.
Many different personalities, upbringings, karmas, histories, cultures out
there. No…we should no…t ‘all be doing’ what Dez is doing. Although…it is
good to give those things that frighten us a look, give it a try, see if it
works for us, where are conditioning is. But no…this is far from what I should
be doing right now. Thanks for informing me of what i should be doing with my
body…but i think I’ll make my own decisions in those realms…been there, done
that, grew me to get stronger in myself and so grateful for the
experience….but no…that level of sexuality felt like shit.
Rahasya Advait: ‎@ Catherine: Yes, we tend to trust women but not men, in that
way. No right or wrong to it, just an observable truth.

maybe it’s some weird kind of culture reverse bias, because this is not true in
medicine, law etc, where the male profession…al “knows what he is doing”.

also because overt power, on a human-planetary scale now moves to the feminine

and because tantra has always been a womens’ teaching and art, and men have
always been willing to support the Goddess, when they can see her.

And most of all because the outer paralells the inner. The power-relating in the
world is the
Jason Valenti: Maya, is it possible that all of the negative things that has
afflicted humanity starts at the core of the human sexual energy system. IMO, it
does, and if it does all I’m saying is that it is obvious that the human race is
sooooo outta to…uch with how and what for their own sexuality is and capable
of, that to heal it isn’t gonna come from doing everything else but confronting
it and dealing with it head on….I tried the first 33 years of my life to heal
my deepest issues with New Age Fluff and it wasn’t until I did the things that
scared me that I began to see really find out a lot of things about myself and
others were confirming the same discoveries. Now, I don’t know what your history
is, but for anyone to say “been there, done that” is not to say that it was the
same experience as everyone else…..we’re all different, but the one thing that
is universal about all of us is that we are a cooperative species and need each
other. This topic is volatile and pushes buttons faster, and with more
intensity, than any other, that most of the time people can’t even “get” what
the other is really trying to say. Heck, just typing all of this out is a one
dimensional medium of communication….all of the other attributes of
communication are missing from just reading this…..

“Language is a purveyor of limitation”… the very act of writing or speaking
English illustrates this point.

The experience of sexual contact, which to me, is the open heart to all
potentials for creative life force to flow, is what people are the most damaged
about. There is soooo much to this topic and this thread only represents an
inkling of a distillation process of all of our expressions through words….

To revisit suppressed, repressed & oppressed memories of sexuality will always
feel like shit, initially until the transcendent moment appears on the horizon

Maya Yonika: I agree with revisiting…working on repressions and
obsessions…of course. Believe me… i know all about, from actual experience
rather than theory, about facing fears. This has been stated, and it is also my
truth as a path to awakening…. Life has since grown in amazing ways.
Nevertheless, to conclude that intense promiscuity is the answer to the worlds
problems is what I’m not appreciating. It’s just not true. It may be true for
you… but it wasn’t my truth. I entered that relationship in interest of
experiencing conscious deep loving open relationship. I thought that’s what he
was teaching. My experience with that level of promiscuity is it leaves no room
for the deep and loving part. So this is why i make the point..no…this is not
what everyone should be doing.

And… i also agree with the limitations of this communication. I feel you and i
feel your intention through your words here. No worries. Thanks for the
communications.
Robert Hartman: With male practitioners, the fear is that testosterone can cloud
judgment and spur aggression that a female client in a vulnerable condition
cannot withstand. Combine that with a “spiritual” rationalization and it could
well lead to a trail… of manipulated and traumatized clients.

Of course, a similar dynamic that is less overt can happen with female
practitioners as well. Dopamine is potent stuff, and that’s what clouds judgment
in either sex.

Male clients are far less likely to talk or complain about it, or in some cases
even recognize that they have been abused until much later. And even when they
do, their complaints tend to be given short shrift. “Hey, you got laid/got off
didn’t you? You got what you paid for. What did you expect?” But that demeans
both them and all competent female practitioners. It also give the entire
practice a bad name.

A while back I heard about a perpetual client who, it appeared, had not made
progress in learning to relate more comfortably with women despite repeated work
with a variety of practitioners. And I heard statements from some of them that
this particular client triggered strong aversions in them. Yet, this man seemed
grateful for any crumbs of attention that he received from his “goddesses.” In
my view, he would have been far better off with a conventional talk therapist
who could hold him in unconditional positive regard.

There are some clients for whom it is entirely appropriate to refer elsewhere.
Some need psychotherapeutic support before they can reasonably be expected to
benefit or even give consent. If a practitioner cannot set aside either desire
or aversion with respect to a particular client, no amount of clinical
dispassion or spiritual self talk will make up for it. Such a client is bound to
get hurt. It is only when a practitioner can hold her or his own reactions in
complete peace that a client is safe. If you can do that while exploring
physical intimacy with a troubled client, it is a precious gift to that client.
But if you’re having doubts about it with someone in particular, you just might
want to set the bravado aside and refer that person out.

Robert Hartman One other comment about dopamine. It can cloud judgment, but it
also opens up awareness of the mythic dimension. One just has to be sure that
all four feet are grounded before soaring to those ecstatic heights.

Maya Yonika: ps… it is my experience presently…that my sexual energy system,
in celibacy and intense yoga practice…is more healthy and happy than it has
been since 14 when i started being super hyper sexual. What of those like myself
who lived so …many years in obsession of relationship and sex? What if I’d had
my fill of intense sexuality and needed something different? What if a more
disciplined and yogic/devotional lifestyle is what some need? But i find no room
for that in the neo tantric ways…maybe there’s some lip service to it…but I
sure didn’t experience anyone in deep practices beyond sexual focus. What is up
with that? I left tantra to find Yoga. Isn’t something missing there? I was told
I had issues because i was saying i wanted to slow down sexually…it wasn’t
feeling good any more…and the more i expressed my truth, the more i was told i
should be even more sexual. I’m sorry…there has to be deeper wisdom in those
offering Tantra than lip service to the Goddess and more sex being the only
way…equating ‘healthy’ It’s just not true.

Wahkeena Sitka: My suggestion to you, Dez, is to take a year off, maybe 2 years
off. And find something totally fresh and new to do for a year or two or
forever.. Give yourself a break. Give yourself a fresh pair of glasses to look
at this whole thing with…. You can’t see clearly enough right now because
you’re too attached to your ego-identity in the Tantric work. It seems to me
that in your essay here, you are speaking to yourself, you are writing your own
mirror back to yourself so that you can see where you are most defensive. And
using fluffy terminology to cloak that defensiveness.

True Tantra is about enlightenment, and if you really want to get to the essence
of that – and not cloak it over with fluffy terms – then I suggest you delve
into dismemberment of your psyche, your role, & your identity. You will be a far
happier person without all this drama, and without all this justification, and
without all these projections, and drains on your energy field.

Robert Hartman: One more word about “countertransference.” Just as transferences
are the roles and feelings that a client projects onto a practitioner,
countertransference encompasses the roles and feelings that a practitioner
projects on a client. There c…an be no denying that it happens with every
single client. In some cases it’s manageable, in others, it’s not. Your own
comfort level in the situation is key. If someone turns you on to the point of
madness, it could be a problem with you. If someone creeps you out, that could
also be a problem with you. If someone does both, that’s definitely a problem!

Shakti Malan Words well crafted Dez. The challenge is living them. Being a
teacher in this field, is a position of great power that comes with great
responsibility. Especially towards your students. The only way to walk this
razor path is to keep doing the inner work, to become a clearer and clearer
vessel, and to be ruthlessly honest with yourself about what motivates you
sexually.

KrisEllen Sensualist: I am grateful this conversation is happening. @Dez thank
you for sharing your note and perspective. Thank you for the courage to speak
your voice, and to share the vision which has moved you to share with the world.
I observe we are all fac…ets of the Divine. I read lot of beautiful, and well
articulated points are spoken here.

There are a few quotes that come to mind (paraphrased), about when “we are able
to look at ourselves and ask the difficult questions then we are dancing in
consciousness, and when we are not able to reflect within the self and deflect
that may be a dance of the unconscious”, and the other is about the different
between conscious play and abuse. Talk about how conscious play is an inquiry,
an additive experience shared, an “intercourse”: it is not hidden or stuffed
under the rug. Whereas abuse is secretive, hush hush and unspoken.

I honor the choice of discernment. I honor the choice to stand with inquiry and
Integrity in the place where we are at, in the moment. I am grateful to see a
Community which is being the change they desire to see in the world.
Transparency, discussion, exploration.

Thank you All for sharing. May this conversation bring healing and connection in
the community, our personal lives and the World.
Lori J Bayne: I am confused beyond reason. Why anyone’s opinions of Baba Dez’
actions, life, ego, etc. (whether positive or negative) are being shared here is
quite perplexing to me.

Maya ~ Baba Dez didn’t say that he was trying to get anyone to have lot…s of
sex or not. Promiscuity doesn’t have to be what’s happening, just because sex is
being had by someone. And even if it is, why is that bad for all? (Perhaps you
don’t feel that it’s bad, it just seems that your posts imply that it is, in
your opinion.) Some people can get a lot from having multiple sexual
experiences. And since Jason is my husband, I can tell you that we discussed
these posts and he did not mean that everyone should be a sexual shaman and have
lots of clients when he said we should all be doing what Baba’s doing. He meant
that we should all be open in exploring and not holding back in our sexuality,
whatever shape that takes. For you, it sounds like you are doing that
beautifully and intensely in your yoga practice. Good for you! (And I don’t mean
that with any sarcasm, I truly mean that.) :o D ♥

I am forever perplexed that because someone does something that most people
don’t do, others feel that it’s not only ok, but required, that someone step in
and point out the “error of their ways” to them, as it would seem several
therapists are wont to do in this case. If Baba Dez is doing what he needs to
do, and people are getting benefit from it, then why would anyone think it’s
their place to try to stop him, especially when there is benefit? I think we’re
all just so wrought up over sex, because society has domesticated us in our
little mental and sexual cages, that no one knows what true sexual expression is
anymore, and we end up fighting with each other about who is right so that our
stance can be justified.

If I hold an opinion on any of this, it is that we are all autonomous beings,
each choosing our actions and destinies. What works for one will not always work
for another, and we all have to just do the very best we can with what we’ve
got. I am not trying to make anyone wrong for their feelings, actions or
beliefs. I hope that no one tries to make Baba Dez right or wrong for his,
either. When we all give up the need to be right, and never try to change
anyone’s mind again, I think that is when we will experience world peace. :o )

Robert Hartman ‎@Lori: One aspect of this discussion, and why it is relevant,
is the degree to which an individual’s autonomy around sexuality and romantic
involvement has been compromised by previous traumatic experiences. The fact
that we all have been wounded to a greater or lesser extent has meaning to us as
practitioners and clients. If we lived in a society in which we could all be
supported and supportive, free and easy, open and honest, there would be no need
for discussions like this.

Lori J Bayne: Robert ~ I definitely see what you’re saying. I felt that I was
seeing what looked like people trying to change someone else (and I could be
wrong in my assessment), and that got my attention. I agree we have all been
compromised and woun…ded, which is why I said that all we can do is the best
we can with what we have. I say let’s all work toward what you mention, “a
society in which we could all be supported and supportive, free and easy, open
and honest.” ♥

Sexual shamanism is necessary, IMHO, for those who are ready to seek it and/or
share it. Jason was and is a sexual shaman for me, even though he is not a
certified therapist. And he has been and continues to be for other people in our
lives. That is a beautiful gift, for those ready to receive it. :o
Maya Yonika: Lori… i feel grossly misunderstood in your responses. “Baba Dez
didn’t say that he was trying to get anyone to have lots of sex or not”. I was
referring to Jasons comment saying ‘everyone should be doing what Dez is doing’.
I don’t agree…. If you’re attempting to make an argument for exploring fears
and sexual wounds, I agree. That is my personal experience as well.
. “Baba Dez is doing what he needs to do, and people are getting benefit from
it, then why would anyone think it’s their place to try to stop him, especially
when there is benefit?” I never said Dez should stop what he is doing, i said
that i felt this conversation would not be happening if he was more honest in
his title ie.prostitute. Some of us have experienced things that are not
beneficial, and it doesn’t automatically mean that it is my wounds or the wounds
of other women who point out questions of integrity. It may just be that there
are some questions of integrity.

Stop him?…Absolutey not. Ask for more honesty and accountability. Yes, that is
what i am doing…and fuck if I’m constantly getting stones thrown at me for
being honest in speaking my experience. I am no threat to Jason’s position..im
not saying anythings wrong with what he’s doing. I’m saying, when it comes to
Dez, call a spade a spade, the emperor naked…

Last thing… there IS a post that distinctly tells dez to stop what he is
doing, right after mine. No mention of this in your post. ????
Shama Helena Malin: Yes it is a touchy subject and there have been abuses. How
to minimize these instances is a quandry, but I think that it is in all of our
best interest to uphold and maintain a certain level of consciousness and
quality in our work. Perha…ps before external pressure creates specific laws
which may enforced upon us, as a profession and community, we could jointly
create a set of guidelines that we disclose and copy to every client and keep on
our websites that will support all of us to hold to agreed upon standards to
ensure the highest quality of integrity and consciousness.

In my experience, while there may be instances where intercourse is essential to
the client’s needs, I personally find that this is very rare in my practice. I
also take into consideration the fact that powerful energetic connections are
made through intercourse that do not end with the session and it is essential to
be sure to sever those energetic connections at the conclusion of the session to
avoid energy leakage to either party.

Linda Marie Smith: I wish to be a sexual shaman healer. Baba, I wish to study
with you! :-)

Lori J Bayne: Maya ~ I see your misunderstanding. All I am saying is that it
does look like some are asking him to stop (the post near yours is the one I was
referring to), and I’m not throwing stones at anyone. Personally, I think it’s
his title to giv…e or not to himself, whatever he wants or feels drawn to
being called, and I don’t feel that anyone has the right to tell anyone else
what they should call themselves or do with their lives. There are so many posts
here and I was generally speaking to the crowd in the same post as where I spoke
to you. Sorry if there was some confusion. After the paragraph that starts with
your name, I’m addressing anyone to whom it applies and not you specifically.
Sorry I didn’t differentiate. I think we agree on exploring sexual fears, etc.
as we each see fit. Also, I was just clarifying that what you thought Jason said
wasn’t what he meant (as he and I discussed this and I asked him directly), so
you were disagreeing with something he didn’t mean. I’m not asking anyone to
stop being honest for fear of stones being thrown. That didn’t even occur to me.

To Everyone ~ The thing I’m saying is that he has the right to call himself what
he sees himself as, and to continue doing what he wishes, as we all do, without
being told we are wrong. That’s all I was trying to say. Methinks it’s a good
time for me to stop being part of this conversation. So many misunderstandings
and flair-ups possible and I don’t want to write more so that there’s more to
misunderstand. I say live and let live. Any further misunderstandings created by
this post, I apologize for in advance.

Bruce Lyon: A comment about the confusion inherent in discussions like this
because of the different consciousness involved and the fact that it evolves
through devlopmental stages

I do what ever I want – egocentric
my tribe ( or really the leaders of m…y tribe ) do what ever our mythic gods
indicate ( ethnocentric )
our behaviour should be based on rules and systems based on experience, reason
and common good ( modern )
it depends upon various factors, agreements, history and so forth – many
perspectives need to be taken equally into account ( post modern )

all levels of consciousness have validity at different times and different
stages which coexist together in us and in our society ( integral )
everything that happens is perfect ( transcendent )

real conflict and dissonance arises due to a couple of tendencies

1. Earlier developmental levels tend to universalise their truth ” we all need
to….” The tantra community must…” etc. (No one likes to be wee’ ed on :)

2. Clever or naive egos can dress up lower motivations as higher ones (
everything is perfect = I do what ever I want )

3. Shadow or unconsciousness affects us inspite of our intentions ( why we need
good self and peer reflection )

4.. Genuine tra

Jennifer Jardine: I think you hit the HOT BUTTON SACRED SPOT Dez! I have also
heard a lot of commentary on your work from other educators and what I have said
is (and I hope this is okay with you) the man is obviously doing something
right! He is kicking ass, healing and educating all over the frickin’ world!!!
They are just jealous Baba ’cause you actually, unabashedly, DO THE WORK! Love
that Spirit in you! Lovingly ~ Jen

Maya Yonika: ‎….and I also agree with Bruce in that everything is perfect…
the whole conversation is both in one context educational, in another,
ridiculous. Lessons learned, gained, attained. Life continues. Love to you, Dez
and all that you do. There is part of me that needed to express those feelings,
and another part that fully gets that what is is simply Divine. You, me, and all
of us…simply divine. The rest will play out according to god’s graces. Sat
Nam!
Maya Yonika ‎….but no…controversy does not automatically equate rightness
or wrongness.
Catherine Angela Williams: Dez, will you be participating in this thread as
dialogue? I am reading this wondering what the value is for “peripherals” like
me. I have experience with these issues from both sides, so I agree with
comments both “for” and “against”. (And… I just cant help myself- the grey
areas seem so much closer to truth than black n white!!)

Is anyone actually listening to each other? Is it possible for all these
expressions to be taken to heart by Dez and everyone else who is reading,
commenting, thinking? If we are all One, then what does this mean here and now?
Catherine Angela Williams: ‎(I am using words here because I like them, they
contain power too, and because this is the nature of the forum- experience is
best.)

Dez is in truth, consciously creating a life which transcends social
stereotyping and serves our greater g…ood: Yes, I agree

“Yet despite their beauty and ability to stay strong, wolves are sometimes
talked about in this way:”Ah, you are too hungry, your teeth are too sharp, your
appetites too interested.”

“The body is a multilingual being. It speaks through its colour and its
temperature, the flush of recognition, the glow of love, the ash of pain, the
heat of arousal, the cold of nonconviction.”

Chpt 7: “Joyous Body: The Wild Flesh”Women Who Run With Wolves, Dr Clarissa
Pinkola- Estes: Catherine Angela Williams

Dez is in shadow, addicted and unconscious, unable to hear the angry feedback:
Yes, I agree

” The shadow can contain the divine, the luscious, beautiful aspects of
personhood. The shadow almost always contains very fine aspects of being that…
are forbidden or given little support by the culture.” and

“the negative aspects of shadow tend to be oddly exciting and yet entropic in
nature, stealing balance and equanimity of mood and life from individuals,
relationships, and larger groups.”

Chp 8, Self Peservation: Identifying Leg Traps, Cages and Poisoned Bait, Women
Who Run With Wolves, Dr Clarissa Pinkola- Estes

“It should not be misconstrued that when an adult feels or expresses anger that
this is a sure sign of unfinished business in childhood (or life experience).

There is much need and place for rightful and clear anger, especially when
previous calls to consciousness have been made in anywhere from dulcet to
moderate tones of voice and been unheard.

Anger is the next step in the hierachy of calling attention.”
Chp 12 Marking Territory: The Boundaries of Rage and Forgiveness, Women Who Run
With Wolves, Dr Clarissa Pinkola-

Catherine Angela Williams Dont we all dance between the shadow and the light? I
guess what matters is how much more aware of each we want to become? I do, and
its terrifying and painful.

Catherine Angela Williams: Aplogies Dez: you are of interest as a culture
changer and friend, yes, but I have enough work to do on myself without
wondering about yours.

To be aware of a single shortcoming in oneself is more useful than to be aware
of a thousand in som…eone else: Dalai .

Shima Opening-Lotus: If I go to a singing teacher to learn to sing there is a
good chance I may sing with this teacher. Anyone got a problem with that?

Tantrikas fuck. Yes we do breath work, and kundalini shake the house down and an
array of “ancient sexual tant…ric practice” but sooner than later we are going
all the way through and all the way in this soft beast; our body.

Historically we have fucked while our lover lies dying from the poison he has
just taken to call a conscious death, we have fucked in graveyards amongst
rotting corpses, we have killed and died for our freedom.

Now there is an ooh aah about having sex with our students!? What madness has
come upon the minds of humans?

Where are the warriors of old you knew the difference between a cage and their
being?

But one thing I can tell you Dez .. you have sex with some sweet thing from your
own yuck unconscious space refused to be seen and examined and Existence will
bite your ass so bad you will not be able to sit for months I guarantee itBaba
Dez Nichols Shima…i love you. Right on! Thanks everyone for your comments. The
AusConf is happening right now so i have my hands full at the moment. Will
hopefully write something more on Monday :) Life is full, sweet, and amazing…
Give Thanks! Sasha Alex Lessin Ph.D. Most sex educators, sometime or other in
their practice, do connect with clients. What’s important, I think, is that they
analyze their bonding (transference) pattern consciously and avoid harming
anyone.

Jennifer Jardine ‎@ Shima: I love your first line and as Tantricas we have
sung and danced with our students and most like did a better job than any
trained singing or dancing instructor because we can transend all the
pretenses.Tantricas I know NEVER fuck anyone! If you fuck then you are a fucking
whore! If you meet your students with the intent of only Love and MAKE LOVE, in
whatever that form takes, then and only then you are a Tantrica. Jerry Orban you
are good right on time ifill you so does book

Brian Walter: I just want to give a shout out to Shima, who IMO summarized this
entire debate with the following words

“Now there is an ooh aah about having sex with our students!? What madness has
come upon the minds of humans?
Where are the warriors of o…ld you knew the difference between a cage and
their being?

But one thing I can tell you Dez .. you have sex with some sweet thing from your
own yuck unconscious space refused to be seen and examined and Existence will
bite your ass so bad you will not be able to sit for months I guarantee it!!”

Thank you, Goddess, for being who you are in such fullness.

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